In Episode 217 of Mother Earth News and Friends, Tomia MacQueen of Wildflower Farm shares how to protect your poultry and waterfowl from predators, notably in urban and suburban spaces. We’ll cover ways of protection, predator-proofing your coop, guard animals for chickens and other birds, how to protect ducks from hawks, predator identification, and more.
Scroll down for our episode transcript, and scroll to the bottom for our show-note resources!
How to Protect Your Poultry and Waterfowl Transcript
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Welcome to the Mother Earth News and Friends podcast. At Mother Earth News for 50 years and counting, we’ve been dedicated to conserving the planet’s natural resources while helping you conserve your financial resources. In this podcast, we host conversations with experts in the fields of sustainability, homesteading, natural health, and more to share all about how you can live well wherever you are in a way that [00:01:00] values both people and our Mother Earth.
Thanks for joining us today for this special video podcast episode of Mother Earth News Friends. And if you happen to be listening to just audio today, don’t worry, you’ll still enjoy the episode just as much. I got to sit down with Tomia MacQueen of Wildflower Farm, who shares with us all about protecting your poultry from predators, notably in urban and suburban spaces. I’ll let Tomia take it from here with her presentation.
Tomia MacQueen: Well, hello. My name is Tomia MacQueen. I am the owner of Wildflower Farm in Pennington, New Jersey. And today we are talking about protecting your poultry and waterfowl from predators. Let’s go.
Methods of protection. So there’s prevention. That’s, that’s Louise, not Thelma, actually, we have two donkeys, Thelma and Louise, guard donkeys. Louise was just being cutesy. Um, [00:02:00] trying to, you know, “photo bomb” me a little bit. So she’s a, she’s a sweetheart when she wants to be. And at other times, Thelma and Louise aptly earned their names. Okay, so methods of protection, you have prevention, deterrence, you have exclusion, elimination, and submission, and we’ll talk about what each of those methods of protections are.
[00:02:21] Methods of Protecting Your Poultry: Prevention, Exclusion
Tomia MacQueen: So when it comes to protecting your, your poultry and waterfowl and other small livestock, when you talk about prevention, you’re talking about the use of pre planning with, by using infrastructure and other animals, for example, like our guard donkeys, to prevent predation.
When you’re talking about exclusion, you’re using your infrastructure particularly to keep your predators out. So, for example, we use electric fencing on our farm, and that is an exclusionary method, but it’s also a method of deterrence. [00:03:00] So it’s not a method of prevention because if something is hungry enough, it will go through that fence, and if an animal is afraid of enough, it will go through that fence.
So a complete exclusion would be your hard exterior fences, your hardware cloths that we’ll talk about in terms of keeping your coop safe. So if you’re talking about excluding predators from your coop, for example, you’re going to want to use a minimum of a half inch hardware cloth if you have, if you’re, if it’s for chickens or turkeys or any other flying bird that might fly up into a tree or anywhere that they can sit up high. Very large openings, sort of four by three in the fencing, that’s something that I actually tell people never, ever to use, because a raccoon can easily reach in and injure your [00:04:00] animals, especially if you have a tree or something that the chickens are roosting in that’s within reach of that fence. We actually had that happen and lost a couple of our favorite birds because the, while the, the wire is exclusionary, it was not sufficient in preventing damage because they’re able, they were able to reach in very easily.
Inside that coop near a fence near that, that barrier you’re going to want to use quarter inch hardware cloth all the way up. If you have something like ducks that, that do not fly in roost or geese, then you can just take it halfway up. The hardware cloth is not cheap. And so a lot of times people don’t want to use it, but the truth is chicken wire keeps your chickens in. It doesn’t keep big predators out. It does not keep raccoons out, which have opposable thumbs and very sharp claws that can rip it. And it won’t keep a coyote out if they, if they really want to get in. And certainly not bears. [00:05:00] And so you want to use that quarter inch, a half inch hardware cloth all the way up for anything that can fly, right?
And we don’t clip wings or anything on our farm, so we, we, that needs to go all the way up. And at least halfway up for things like ducks that are likely to sit close to that, that, that barrier. You don’t want to, you don’t want to have the heartbreak that we had years and years ago and probably in our second year where we had one reach in and actually pull the gizzard out of a chicken and kill a couple of others that were roosting in the run, because we missed the fact that one of the roosters was being a bit of a butt. And the girl, some of the girls decided to roost in the run. And, and, and to not only roost in the wisteria tree, but also on the ground near that fence. And so we know, we came out to a mess, and then later we thought one had been taken. And it turned out she was walking around without her, [00:06:00] without the, the gizzard and, and we had to put her down. She, she looked fine. We couldn’t believe it, but we knew that she wasn’t going to survive, so you had to put her down. And so that’s all very heartbreaking. And you can save yourself that heartbreak by making sure you have that half inch hardware cloth.
If you’re want, if you have a snake issue, if you’re in an environment where snakes are a real problem, we do have some snakes here, most are garter, garter snakes. And other small garden snakes. Really not a big issue. We do have a couple of big ones here but we’ve not had any problems with them. If you have a, if you’re in an area where you know you’ve got snakes or you have poisonous snakes that you don’t want to be reaching into a nest box and find out that you’ve got something curled up with your eggs, eating your eggs, you’re going to want to use a quarter inch hardware cloth to keep them out. And whether that’s high up or not will be determined by whether or not you have other fencing and trees and things that those those those critters can [00:07:00] climb. A quarter inch will also keep keep out rats. Half inch will not keep out rats and mice. It might keep out rats, depending on how big the rats are the, the half inch will keep those out, but the quarter inch will not keep out mice. So those are all considerations depending on your problem.
So exclusion, as you can see, is a huge part, is the easiest way for most people in urban and suburban areas to protect their livestock.
Learn more about poultry fencing in our podcast featuring Joe Putnam!
[00:07:26] Deterrence: Guard Animals for Chickens and Other Birds, Fencing, & More
Tomia MacQueen: You, you have the use of animals, like Thelma and Louise, and other infrastructure to deter your predators. Electric fencing is a deterrence because when that wet nose of most of your predators hit that fence, they’re out of there. What I will tell you is that it doesn’t work if you don’t keep it on. And what you will find is that quite often people will forget to turn it on, or they will think, I’ve had, I’ve had neighbors who say, hey, help me, I’m losing birds. And it turns out that they bought electric fencing and they have the energizer [00:08:00] somewhere in the garage and they never bothered to take it out because the chickens were being kept in. But it’s not sufficient. And foxes in particular, which is a huge problem here, check the fences every single day. Sometimes several times a day. And they will wait for that one time when your fence is not on and they will go under and they will kill all of your birds. It’s especially if it’s something like a raccoon, they kill everything there. They’re more bloodthirsty. A fox will kill one or two and carry them off and come back for the, the others that they left. Or something like a raccoon or a weasel will kill everything in sight. And, and that is a heartbreak you, you do not want to have.
So deterrence is a use of things like livestock guardian animals, such as donkeys. Livestock guardian dogs. are a fantastic way. I’m not suggesting you combine those two. In fact, I’m suggesting you don’t unless they’re raised together. Just because of the way they work, [00:09:00] donkeys do not like canines. And so, and they are territorial. So they do, they, they will protect your sheep and they do bond with them and your chickens to some degree. A little less so with your waterfall. So, but, but it’s more so when it comes to your poultry and waterfowl, it’s less bonding and more territorial. Whereas the dogs, the livestock guardian dogs, are more likely to actually bond to whatever flock they’re in, you know, chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys, sheep, whatever they become. They are pack animals and they will defend it with their life. So they are wonderful deterrents. They often, if it’s a proper livestock guardian dog, they often bark all night. Something to think about if you, if you’re in a small space. But that is how they deter. So that is something to be, to consider.
It also depends on what kind of predation you’re having. If you’re in an urban and suburban area, your predation meant, [00:10:00] foxes come into those areas. Small coyotes come into those areas. Coywolves don’t necessarily come in because they’re, I mean, frankly, they’re smart. They just don’t tend to come in to the urban areas where people are. They’ll come down railroad tracks and they’ll come into more rural areas. But your small coyotes that, that, that are not pack animals as much, that, that roam independently, will come into urban and suburban areas. Your foxes, sometimes if there’s cover of woodland nearby, will come into urban and suburban areas. Here we’re very close, you know, you’ll find things like foxes in town and coyotes in town because there’s substantial wooded areas and, and garden spaces around those areas.
But in suburban and urban areas, one of your biggest issues is other people’s dogs. Right? And so sometimes having your own dog helps deter, a proper, you know, good [00:11:00] sized dog helps to deter other dogs from doing damage to your birds. And of course, barriers and exclusion is also a way to go when it comes to being in an urban and suburban area, because there’s just less, there tends to be less patience with your animals free ranging. There’s, there’s a little less empathy and a little less patience because not everybody is doing it. So you really, I think in most scenarios, you’re going to want to have a solid coop and you’re going to want to let them free range if that’s your choice when you’re out there or when your guardian is out there.
Get more coop tips with Kenny Coogan in Chicken Coop Essentials and Design Ideas.
[00:11:37] More Protection Methods: Pressure Reduction, Submission, & Elimination
Tomia MacQueen: Okay, pressure reduction. Then these are all, of course, sustainable coexistences. The last two are not. Pressure reduction is a matter of not going out to, to kill everything that’s moving, but ensuring that you are simply reducing the population, so to minimize damage to your flocks, right? And that [00:12:00] might be getting a hunter out if you’re in a rural area. If you’re in an urban or suburban area, it might mean trapping and working with your local authorities to, to minimize that, that damage.
Elimination is, is just trying to get rid of everything. It’s, it’s very unwise if you’re in a, in a rural area because you’re really just allowing something else to come in. And it really is almost impossible anyway. And in an urban and suburban area, it’s, it’s, you know, even if you had the legal right to use a BB gun and try to eliminate everything, you really are exacerbating the problem because everything has an ecosystem. If you have a snake problem and you try to kill every snake in your garden or in your yard or on your whatever, guess what? They also eat, they, they do, can do damage to your chicks and to your eggs. But they also reduce your mouse and rat population. So, when you kill everything, you’re giving [00:13:00] something else an opportunity to run rampant all over your property.
So, for example, out here our farm is, is on large acreage. And if we went after to try to kill all the foxes, our mouse population, the voles, the moles, the, you know, all of these other prey that they have run rampant.
And so, you know, you, you always want to think about your, your, your ecosystem and your micro ecosystem around your home, rather than trying to eliminate everything. And then also if you do eliminate all the foxes or all of the snake or all the way or whatever, you’re just allowing your, you’re waiting on the next round to come in and it’s a continuous cycle.
And then the last one, of course, is submission and give up and let the predators reign and just decide not to have animals at all. That’s not sustainable, of course. And for many of us who have our, our, our chickens and ducks and geese and turkeys, it’s not even an option.
[00:13:58] How to Protect Ducks from Hawks & the Importance of Infrastructure
Tomia MacQueen: The other thing I will tell you in terms of, [00:14:00] um, prevention and infrastructure, when you’re talking about waterfowl, a lot of people try to keep ducks and in like chickens, and you can’t you can’t do that. So with a with waterfowl, you get people say, oh, ducks are dirty ducks or this or that. And the truth is the first thing our ducks do when they come out of the house in the morning is run straight for the pond to have a bath, and then they come back to see if you have anything extra to eat, because we only feed at night to make sure they’re indoors.
So, you know, your infrastructure for protecting your animals is very important. And the reason I bring up the fact that they like to run and have a bath is because since we started letting them out onto the pond, we’ve lost no birds, we’ve lost no waterfowl to hawks and very few to ground predators. And so we, we lost our first waterfowl in years to a fox this year, our oldest, our oldest Gallagher, who [00:15:00] probably would have been protecting the flock. The reason he was caught by, by a local pair of foxes that we’re dealing with at the moment, because we open range, then it’s more of a risk. So you always have to look at that risk when you decide to free range or open range. And open range just means it’s wide, wide open.
But that pond is nine feet deep. And so what happens is ducks naturally have a defense. So so what happens is if you get a hawk around or you get dogs and coyotes and foxes around, the first thing they do is run for the pond. And the reason for that is not only do canines swim a lot slower if they choose to go after them in the water at all, but hawks don’t dive. And so what will happen is they’ll see the hawk coming and they will dive and swim under the water and they’ll, they’ll be, they’ll see the hawk leave and then they come up for air. And so having the appropriate infrastructure for your birds’ natural defenses [00:16:00] is very, very important. So you can have them with a small kiddie pool, you can have them without water at all. But understand that you are further reducing and handicapping them in terms of their own protection
Same thing with chickens. You want to make sure they have a cover of some kind to run under If you’re going to let them free range: a small tree, a small bush, even a series of pallets in the middle so that they can run under those if birds of prey come after them. All of that makes a difference in terms of your prevention.
[00:16:35] Properly Protect Your Breeds
Tomia MacQueen: Okay, so this is just a short chart. A lot of, a lot of what we talked about already. The main thing is to choose the proper breeds for your landscape and not to handicap your animals. So that’s what I was just saying about if you’re going to free range, we don’t clip beaks, we don’t de-spur, we don’t clip wings. If you’re going to let them free range, you need to give them all of their facilities so that they can protect themselves.
[00:17:00] So looking at short distance flyers. You want solid no dig coops. What that means is when you build your coop, you want to make sure you have your hardware cloth. Say this is the outside of the coop [holds up hand to demonstrate]. You’re going to bring that hardware cloth down and out. You can either have a longer piece that extends across the ground at the joint, or you can have a separate piece like a skirt, and you can zip-tie it to the the standing piece so that the joint is tight so that things can’t dig. Coyotes and foxes, their first choice is to dig, right, rather than, you know, try to pull things apart.
A four foot minimum, if you’re talking about birds, most things can, can, can clear three feet. So, and if you have coyotes, an athletic coyote in New Jersey, they’re bigger than typical coyotes, and they can clear six feet. If you have ceiling netting, if they’re in an open run, having some kind of netting on top to minimize bird of [00:18:00] prey damage, something visible that the birds of prey can see. So, you know, fishing line is bad because they can’t see it as well and they might get caught or they might get caught inside with your birds, which is also bad. So use a proper, sometimes you can use black deer netting. All of that helps.
In terms of exclusion with your waterfowl, again, solid no-dig shelter and a minimum of, of four feet with ducks, if you, assuming they’re not flyers, six feet with geese. And even then, if a goose is scared and they have their facilities, even your heavier Emdens and Toulouse can clear that six foot fence. Which is not necessarily a bad thing if they’re trying to get back in with something chasing them. Our, our Emdens and Toulouse can clear half a seven acre field flying because we don’t clip their wings. And we’ve watched them run from coyotes or fly from coyotes long enough for us to get there. And that has saved them in the middle of, you know, we had one, we had a gander that was being [00:19:00] a butt. We kicked him out the coop because he was kicking all of the girls off their nests. He’s our dominant male, Checkers. And then in middle of the night, we heard him calling and he was, he wasn’t on the pond, which is where he normally would sleep if he’s not in the coop. And if there was a coyote chasing him across the front of our house, and we, we watched him go across the light and the coyote skirt the light. And we took off downstairs and he came back across the house. So he was smart enough to stay in the light, and the coyote was smart enough to stay out of the light. And so because of the light being on, there’s another deterrent, that gave our gander time to fly back and forth and to call, to get our attention. And we went and got them. And he normally doesn’t let us pick him up, but he came right to the emergency recall and let us put him in the, in the brooder house for the night. I felt really bad because I put him out, but you know, I can’t have him beating up the girls either.
[00:19:57] Emergency Recalls for Your Animals
Tomia MacQueen: So emergency recalls. Let me just [00:20:00] pause for a second. Every animal on your farm, or really in your house, whether you’re in an urban, suburban, rural area, should have an emergency recall. For your dogs. It might be a whistle. For your chickens, our chickens, turkeys, and geese, and ducks have a particular sound, everybody knows that, that sound means good things. So from the moment you have them as babies, every time you feed them, you use that sound. And in an emergency, it might just save their life. We’ve had that happen with my, our, one of our puppies. She got away from us. She broke off her lead in the middle of a busy parking lot, cause she saw a car coming backing up that we, we had missed and that emergency recalls saved her from, you know, this busy, these busy cars that would not have seen her, came right back to us.
We did the same thing with our chicks. They have a different recall, we put them out onto the field in a, in [00:21:00] a chicken tractor, some of our new layers. The next day we had a storm and blew the tractor off, and so our birds, our, our chicks were in the, in the field in this pouring rain. We couldn’t find them, it’s a seven acre field. That emergency recall brought them right to me. That’s the kind of, you know, thing you want to have for an emergency situation. And the same things, whether you have chickens or, or, or, or whether you have sheep and goats or donkeys, everybody should have an emergency recall. Including your family. That might be a big bell. If you’re if you’re in a rural or or suburban area, it might be something smaller. Out here, it’s a huge bell. If people hear that bell, they know it’s an emergency. Everybody comes running. So you have to have these plans in place Everybody does anyway and to some degree, but certainly if you have animals that you need to have protected.
[00:21:56] Deterrents on Your Property: Guard Animals for Chickens and Other Birds
Tomia MacQueen: So deterrents. One way of deterring them is to keep them [00:22:00] mobile. So people talk about pasture raising their animals. If you keep moving your animals, you’re more likely to deter things like hawks and foxes that then have to re figure out the safest way to get to them.
Motion lights, LGDs, larger birds like geese. Geese are not guard animals. People think they are. They are not guard animals. They are territorial. But more importantly, they are alarmists. So for example, you know, if someone’s coming down our drive, nine times out of ten, I’ve heard the geese or the donkeys long before I’ve seen their car. They will let you know, they will let you know if there’s a fox nearby, they will let you know, in fact, our geese go off and our dogs hear the geese. And they take off. And so that’s a part of the system. So please don’t get geese thinking they’re going to protect your chickens. They might, they might not. If you want a guard goose, you need to get one to live with your chickens. If you have more than one, the geese will bond together and your other [00:23:00] poultry become secondary. And usually they get picked on by the geese because the geese just become the bosses of everybody. They don’t necessarily going to do damage, but they just established their hierarchy that way. And their first commitment becomes to the other goose, regardless of sex. So if you’re looking for a goose to, to really bond to your chickens or your ducks, you’re going to want to make sure that you have a singular goose.
The other thing is that if you’re going to have, and this is still looking at guardians. If you’re going to have a gander, for example, be careful mixing your waterfowl with your chickens because your waterfowl can actually become a danger to your your hens. If you have a male waterfowl, a gander or drake, and they try to mate with your chickens, they can kill your hens because their, their anatomy, their reproductive anatomy is not created the same way. And the [00:24:00] spiral of the males of the waterfowl can actually injure and kill your hens. So those are instances where your protection can become your danger if you’re not paying attention to how you’re pairing these animals up.
Same thing with, with Toms, turkey Toms. We have had Toms that were wonderful and then they got older and they killed two of our best roosters because, you know, they’re close enough in species for them to be a threat.
[00:24:30] Unique Poultry Predators
Tomia MacQueen: We talked about not using the, the, the lack of wisdom and using elimination. And reduction is trap and release, a hunting program, not just randomly hunting, but a hunting program that you’ve outlined with someone who’s experienced. And also frankly, if you’re in an urban or suburban area, this is harder to do, but you know, if you’re in a slightly larger property, you’re on a little bit more acreage, recycling that hunting material [00:25:00] is also a possibility, whether you’re talking about chickens or pigs or or your wildlife, et cetera. If you have land and no domesticated animals, you still have to steward your land because if you have a family, you have to protect them too.
Bears, with everything that we have said, I will tell you that very few things actually keep bears out if they’re, if they’re hungry. I know of people who have had bears break into their barn and actually kill all of their goats. And we have someone up the road who has chickens who’s had a bear come back three times and destroy their flock. The only thing that keeps a bear away that we have found on a regular consistent basis once they have found food is electric fencing. That’s it. We haven’t found anything else that works. They’re just plain old big strong animals, and if you’ve got grain especially this time of year, you’ve got chickens, you’ve got [00:26:00] goats, you’ve got anything that they think they can handle, it’s fair game. They’re waking up from, from hibernation. They’re feeding cubs. It’s fair game. So you need to make sure that if you have bears in your area, that you are using at least a singular line of, of hot wire around your chickens and waterfowl, et cetera. Or you have something like a pond where they can run to where they’re going to out swim a bear.
Unique factors and predators. We talked about hawks, owls, eagles, foxes. That those are things that we have here in Jersey. There may be other things that people have, but again, you know that your chicks are more vulnerable to things like snakes and rats will eat your shakes. Rats will damage the ankles of your hens. So an exclusionary measure for them is a lot easier than elimination if you’re in a suburban area because if you exclude them well enough, they’ll go away [00:27:00] cause there’s no food. So that is a huge factor is not leaving food out for, for things like rats and raccoons and bears. If you leave feed out, dog food out, anything like that, you’re encouraging them to stick around.
We also have a bobcat and there’s really almost nothing you can do about a bobcat because in New Jersey, they’re protected. And to be honest, they have a 10 mile territorial range. And so the damage that we’ve had from bobcats has been very minimal because their territory is so big. They kind of spread out their damage.
And frankly, there are other things for them to eat. We’ve got deer and fawns and smaller prey in the wood line that they, so they, you know, we’re, we’re easy pickings. But on a 10 mile radius, they, they’re, you know, there are other things for them to go after.
[00:27:49] Poultry Protection Illustrations
Tomia MacQueen: This is just a few pictures of our, of our birds and how we manage things. You can see they’re on, when I say open range, this is what I mean. So that pond is in the back is nine feet deep [00:28:00] in the center. There’s a small island there where they can actually go and kind of just sit. And the, the way that we get them in at night for protection is that emergency recall.
And then waterfowl are routine animals anyway. Chickens and turkeys are not, other than the fact that they will put themselves up to roost at night. By the way, if you have coops for turkeys, these chicken tractors, which are six feet high, just be aware that that’s not high enough for a turkey. So we have had really big goose coops built and then had the turkey runs put inside those coops where it’s sort of 15 feet high. And that really keeps them from, from being able to go on top because they slide down the roof.
But just beware that if you have a smaller coop that’s 6 or 8 feet high, chances are they’re going to roost on top of it. And so for a long time, we would have to chase them off the top of the chicken tractors and inside. And that’s a lot of extra work for you. And if you’re not [00:29:00] tall enough, you won’t reach them.
But a coyotes will come and they’ll bark because we initially, we just let them stay up there. They were inside the electric fence, a six foot fence. But what would happen is the coyotes are smart. They’ll come and they’ll bark until they get scared off of their roosting space, and they fly over the fence. At which point they’re fair game, because chickens cannot see at night. And turkeys have a limited sight at night and coyotes know this, so it’s always important that you always put your animals inside of a safe space at night if you have any predation issues at all with, with, with with canines because they will, they will trick them into running over that fence.
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[00:30:16] Poultry Protection and Community
Jessica Anderson: Amazing. Thank you so much, Tomia, for all that great information.
How can you potentially work with your community, your neighbors, to potentially have a larger, you know, sphere of protection to your poultry or maybe even other pets and livestock in the neighborhood?
Tomia MacQueen: Well, I think, I think communication is key, right? As more and more people have, especially in suburban and urban areas, it’s usually chickens. Most people are not brave enough to venture turkeys and, and waterfowl because of the noise, right. But a huge part of it is, is communication. And things like electric fence. You have to know what you’re allowed to do. And if you, if you’re not allowed to do what you want to do, you [00:31:00] need to find it in the right way.
So people talk about, you know, so HOAs are, are, are, I, I tell people I would never, ever in life move inside of an area with an HOA. For many, many reasons. But part of that is that you have an entire community that has a say about how you live around your home. And if that is your situation, you have to find other like minded people in that community who are going to have the louder voice along with you.
And so what I mean by that is when we teach people about, you know, who are wanting to move out of the city into the country, we talk about how to find the right community and the right community. Is the one that has, whose voices are the loudest that are in support of what it is you want to do and who you are.
So you’re always going to have someone who disagrees with you, who may not want you there, etc, etc. But are their voices the loudest in the community? So, if you have [00:32:00] enough people who have chickens, who can say, Hey, we want chickens. This is what we’re willing to do to protect the rest of the community from damage, from smell and pollution. This is how we’re going to, you know, these are the rules that we are suggesting to make sure that everybody’s happy.
So the challenge comes up when someone’s like, I don’t want chickens. They’re going to bring the property value down. They’re going to be making all this noise. They’re going to get out and scratch up my garden. First of all, that’s somebody who knows a whole lot, who’s probably already had a run in with somebody who’s had chickens, right? And so you’ve got to address those issues in a non confrontational way, in a way of agreement. And a lot of times when people don’t want them, they are confrontational because they see it as affecting their way of life, right, and their pockets. And so, you really become a, a person or a group of persuasion rather than battle. Yes, I think that everybody should be [00:33:00] able to feed themselves. Whether that be an animal protein or whether it be gardening, et cetera. There are communities of low cost housing where they’re not even allowed to have gardens. So, you know, there’s all, there’s all sorts of, of self sustainability issues that are going on and food security issues.
So one way is to say, for example, chickens being the most common. Everyone who has chickens will agree to keep their coop so far from the borderline of the fence. Right? We agreed to keep the smell to a minimum. Here’s how you do it. You have very high carbon in your stationary coops, so that it is breaking down any nitrogen and ammonia and things like that, so that you don’t have a smell. If you have a smell in your coop, you’re missing a component somewhere. You probably don’t have enough carbon, right? Coops should not smell. Including duck coops. People don’t realize that. If your duck coop smells, you don’t have enough carbon in there, get some wood [00:34:00] chips, get some pine shavings, get something, right? Hemp, whatever your, your thing is. But no coop should smell, or you either have the wrong birds for your lifestyle, or you don’t have the right setup.
And so, we as livestock owners have to be honest, and we have to be considerate about the animals and the breeds that we choose. For example, if you want ducks, let’s say you want ducks because you want eggs and meat, right? If you live in an urban area, ducks quack, the girls quack, they make a lot of noise. That’s not fair, right? It’s like having roosters in that space. That’s not fair. So the compromise would be getting Muscovies, right? In a stationary coop. Muscovies fly, so you’ve got to keep them in a stationary coop, but you have your eggs, you have your, your, your meat. And you [00:35:00] have an animal that does not quack. Muscovy ducks don’t quack. So the, the, and you know, the compromise is a, the meat is different from your typical ducks. And you would have to clip their wings if you’re going to free range them. Otherwise they end up in other people’s backyards or they end up invasive like in Florida. Okay, they’re excellent mothers They’ll raise 30 at a time. If they get out and they get wild you’re gonna have a problem So you you do have to contain them.
And so those kinds of compromises, and frankly I recommend Muscovies for urban and suburban areas for that reason. And their, the meat is more like a like almost more like a beef or a venison than the typical duck. Some people love that. We don’t, so we don’t, we don’t keep them anymore. We actually kept them because they’re amazing moms. They’re the best moms you could, you could, you could possibly have, which goes back to the sustainability thing. So you know, there are compromises like that, that can take place.
[00:36:00] Share your eggs with your neighbors. Every, you know, you’re like, you’d be surprised how far it can go when somebody gets a free range chicken egg. It just makes a huge difference. Because when they realize what, that you’re, they’re capable of, they’re, you know, a lot of times they’re like, you need somebody to watch your chickens while you, while you go away for the week? I got you. No problem. Can I get the eggs though? I can have eggs for the weekend? Yep. I’ll watch your chickens. I’ll go make sure they have food and water. Go ahead. I got it. Right? So that, that kind of relationship building is easily possible. And if they don’t eat eggs, I don’t know, offer them something else. Right? Maybe you can barter watching their dog. Maybe you can, I don’t know, just have some kind of partnership.
And if partnership is not possible, build a good fence if you want to keep your chickens. I mean, it’s fair. It really is. If you’re in an HOA, but that doesn’t allow fences, then I would move, but that’s just me. I can’t, I can’t do HOAs. There, there’s, there’s too much control there. But yeah, you just have to [00:37:00] make your loud voice louder with the people in your community.
[00:37:03] You’ve Lost Your Flock to Predators, Now What?
Jessica Anderson: Do you have any words of wisdom or encouragement for someone who has either lost some poultry or maybe even a whole flock to predators and are feeling discouraged right now?
Tomia MacQueen: Yes. I cannot tell you the number of times it’s happened to me, which is why I teach the course, right?
The, the best thing I can say is that you have to look at it like any other pet. Their lifespan is shorter than yours. And at some point you’re going to lose them, even if it’s too old age. It is harder when it is in such a violent way as the, as the way that predators usually do it. And if I tell the truth, I I’m, I’m more comfortable with coyotes than the others, because of the way in which they kill and the limited attack versus killing everything that’s [00:38:00] around. And that’s just us putting our own moral judgment on things, right.
But what I will say is it’s, it’s a hard conversation you should have with your family before you get poultry. You sit down and you explain, these are the animals in our area that like to eat chicken. And this is a possibility. And this is what we’re going to do if that happens. And especially if you have children, it is so hard. It’s like losing a, it’s like losing a relative if they’re family pets. Right? We all know that.
And so it’s critical to have those conversations about what do we do if something, you know, how do we protect them, you know, making sure the gates are closed and making sure that we put a little carabiner on the lock because raccoons can open them. Making sure that we close them up at night, right? Can we put an automatic door on if we’re going to travel, even in the run? So if something digs under the run, there’s an automatic door that’s [00:39:00] closed on the coop, right.
I would say if you lose animals to predators, don’t run out and buy more. It’s like any other relationship. It, when you have that kind of loss, you don’t run out and jump into the next thing, it’s just a bad idea, right? You, you allow yourself to grieve that loss and to figure out what happened. Right, learn to figure out, identify which animal did the damage., If you don’t have cameras, which you really should if you have if you have predation, you can look look it up. And you’ll see for example foxes tend to leave feathers everywhere. Coyotes, you don’t you hardly even see feathers at all. They just take the whole thing and they they go . Obviously snakes will will still be there because they if they’re after eggs or chicks, they they they eat and they they chill. You if you’ve got something like rats, then you know, you know, or hawk damage, or if the heads are taken off, you know, it’s either hawks or it’s raccoons.
So knowing, [00:40:00] being able to identify the predator is very important before you go and run out and buy more, more chicks or, or more birds. Find out what did it. And then figure out how they got in, or what happened. Did something get left open? How do we change our procedure for making sure it doesn’t reoccur?
And to be honest, you can do that, and then something else get in. Right? It’s, and then you have to redo that process. And over time, that process just gets tighter and tighter and tighter and tighter. But, taking a course on predation is a great way to do it. And have somebody walk through. And so, I actually do consulting. I’ll go through, you know, and sometimes it’s by video. People are like, I just want you to see my setup. What can I do to make sure it’s safe so, you know, whatever this is doesn’t get back in. Talk to someone who’s done it, right. Just getting chickens because it’s springtime and not [00:41:00] preparing for that is a, is a terrible way to go.
And spring is not the best time to get chicks anyway. The fall is. But that’s a different conversation. That’s the most expensive egg you’ll ever pay for if you get chicks in the spring. That first egg is like gold.
Jessica Anderson: As we’re wrapping up, is there any places where you’re at on social, website, anything that you’d like to plug so people can follow what you’re up to?
Tomia MacQueen: Yeah, absolutely. So our website is wildflowerfarmNJ, like NewJersey, dot com. And actually our handles on all of our social media is @WildflowerFarmNJ. We keep it all the same. And so we’ve got lots of things going on. Lots of classes., We do classes online. We do classes in person. We do class and we do consulting for urban and suburban and rural folks who have livestock gardens. We specialize in edible gardens and culturally relevant foods. And so we do all of that consulting, all of that teaching. I’m an educator by degree and by trade. So everything comes back to [00:42:00] education for us here and conservation. So we’re constantly revamping how to best minimize our carbon footprint and how to reuse things so that we are doing both the earth and our family and community good in terms of their health and their lifestyle. So, yeah, reach out and, and you can easily get a consult online or by video, or we can come to you. Either way. As long as you’re somewhere close to Jersey. We don’t go past Maryland too much, but you’re somewhere nearby. Or if we’re going to be, if I’m going to be in your area, like I’ll be in, in, in Massachusetts in the fall. You know, if we’re going to be in your area, then we, you can also book a consult and we’ll come out while we’re there.
Jessica Anderson: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Tomia, for just presenting so much great information. Yeah, thank you for your time.
Tomia MacQueen: My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
[00:42:54] Podcast Credits
Jessica Anderson: If you want to catch Tomia’s extended webinar on protecting [00:43:00] poultry from predators, you can catch the full version online starting May 14th at www. motherearthenews. com slash live slash urban dash poultry dash predators.
Thanks for joining us for this episode of Mother Earth News and Friends. To listen to more podcasts and get connected on our social media, visit www.MotherEarthNews.com/Podcast. You can also email us at Podcast@OgdenPubs.Com with any questions or suggestions. Our podcast production team includes Jessica Anderson, Kenny Coogan, and Alyssa Warner.
Music for this episode is “Hustle” by Kevin MacLeod.
The Mother Earth News and Friends podcast is a production of Ogden Publications.
[00:43:49] Brinsea Post-Roll
Jessica Anderson: Thanks again to Brinsea, our sponsor for this Mother Earth News and Friends podcast episode. You too can experience the Brinsea [00:44:00] difference and maximize your hatch rates with Brinsea incubators that monitor temperature and humidity and are made of antimicrobial materials.
Brinsea ships worldwide and provides stellar customer support to answer all your questions. Hatch your chicks with Brinsea, the leader in innovative incubation research. Learn more at Brinsea.com. Again, that’s www.Brinsea.com
Until next time, don’t forget to love your Mother.
Meet Tomia MacQueen
Tomia MacQueen is an Educator (BA) of 18 years, a Farmer as well as a Master Gardener specializing in edible gardens for over 14 years. She is the owner of Wildflower Farm and the Founder of Dance for LIFE (Love, Inspiration, Faith and Empowerment) and Gardening for LIFE.
Tomia is a Board member of Friends of Hopewell Valley Open Space (FoHVOS) and the Northeast Organic Farming Association-New Jersey, Founder of the Healing Waters Farming Project and a member of Governance for the Ujamaa Cooperative Farming Alliance where she is also Lead for the Value-Added Working Group and a member seed grower.
Wildflower Farm sustainably produces organically and ethically raised pastured and free range poultry, lamb, vegetables with a truly unique focus on humane animal husbandry policies and conservation practices and is host to Educational Sustainability and Homesteading workshops for adults and children. Tomia partners with other local organizations, schools and universities as a Farmer/Mentor and dedicates herself to imparting healthy habits and positive body image to both her dance and gardening students, and to closing food security gaps through education.
Additional Resources
Thanks to Brinsea, the chick incubation specialists, for sponsoring this episode!
Our Podcast Team:
Jessica Anderson, Kenny Coogan, and Alyssa Warner
Music: “Hustle” by Kevin MacLeod
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The Mother Earth News and Friends podcasts are a production of Ogden Publications.
Ogden Publications strives to inspire “can-do communities,” which may have different locations, backgrounds, beliefs, and ideals. The viewpoints and lifestyles expressed within Ogden Publications articles are not necessarily shared by the editorial staff or policies but represent the authors’ unique experiences.
